ES
Bad Beats, Bad Rooms, and Lots of fun
This trip started off on Wednesday May 7th at the MGM Grand, when we checked in we were “upgraded” to a west wing room. This was very disappointing to my non-gambling wife since I canceled our reservations for The Hotel, and now was booked in one of the smallest rooms in Vegas. Since we were told that if anything was available we would be upgraded I went down and talked to the players club area and they upgraded us to a bungalow suite at no extra charge. So now to the poker, the first session took place at the MGM and started around Midnight on Wednesday I do remember all the details but took a couple bad beats and did not play my best poker. Down 380 for the session.
The second session came on Friday around noon and had a few very memorable hands, first one came early in the session when V1 (very good local player) raised to 12 dollars, I called on the button with 7h 5h, and the big blind also called. Flop came k55 rainbow and we checked the flop around. Turn came an 8 all different suits on board. After 2 checks hero bet 15 BB folded and V1 called. River was 5 to give me quads V1 checked and I fired 25 at pot V1 called. Now this hand is not memorable because I made quads; but rather the fact that I only won 40 dollars post flop with V1 holding KK and flopping top boat. Anyone else I played with in Vegas my entire trip would have lost more with most losing their whole stack. After the previous night this almost put me on tilt as much as any bad beat. It seems to me that any other player that I came up against the whole trip loses their stack in this situation. Another hand of note came about an hour later I am middle position and raise to 15 with AA, V1 on the button calls and V2 calls from BB. Flop comes A 7 5 rainbow. Flop gets checked around as this is a very good board. Turn is an 8 V2 checks I bet $25, V1 raises to 65, V2 folds. I think I am up against a draw or a set and push additional 175 putting V1 all in. He calls and tables a 9 6 offsuit for a straight. I am not sure how I could have played this hand differently? If you do not trap with a rainbow board with top set in this situation when would you? Was it just a cooler or a horrible read that I thought I was against 2 pair or a set? My thought is that there is no way I can lay down a set of aces here anyways so the shove is right. Would appreciate feedback. Later in the session 3rd hand of note happens. A new player to table (V1) raises to 12 I call with 10 9 Diamonds. Flop is 8d 7h 4c V1 opens for 10, I reraise to 35 and V1 flat calls. Turn is Qd V1 checks I lead out for 50 and get reraised to 100 I instantly call. At this point the pot is 295 the river is a 5s and V1 checks I bet 150 and after V1 goes into the tank he calls and tables AQ off. On this board with the way the hand was played I can not believe I was called by top top. One big problem is that I had no read on the villain as he was brand new to the table. I feel like I played the hand right but it did not work out. Down for session $240 not even a full buy in.
3rd session later that night at 2am at the MGM. This table has 3 good local players and a lot of really bad players. One tourist is playing 95 percent of flops calls everything. First hand of note takes place about 45 minutes into the session I raise 15 with AQ and get two callers V1 young samoan guy calls on button, and tourist who plays 95% of hands calls (V2). Flop is Q 7 7 rainbow. V2 checks I bet 25, V1 calls, V2 folds. Turn is an A board is still rainbow, I bet 35 and V1 flat calls again. River is A and my boat has me a lot more confident of where I am at. I check and V1 bets 25 I think for a minute and put him all in for his remaining $95, he goes into the tank and calls. I almost fell out of my chair when he tables K high for his whole stack. I love Vegas late at night. After building the stack to about 600 another memorable hand takes place. When I raise 20 preflop with KK to isolate tourist who calls 95% of hands V1 he calls, as does a brand new player who checked option after posting V2. Flop comes 9 7 7 two spades and V2 instantly shoves for remaining 100 after buying in for 120. I have a tough decision being in between players with V1 could have anything. I decide the only logical hand for V2 is flush draw and I call the all in. Then V1 shoves too…for only 6 dollars more. At this point I know someone has a 7 and I call. V2 tables Q 10 of spades and V1 table 72 offsuit! I mean seriously too a 20 dollar raise. V2 makes flush on river and leaves with his girlfriend and my money 3 hands later. Two hours later new guy from a table break sits down with 900 in chips and I end up winning a big pot with J9 when I turn a set and he folds to all in for 70 more after he led out for $90. I end session up $245.
Final session is from 3:30 am to 7:30 am on Saturday night. This is a truly great table, but I thought I was doomed for the trip after getting up to $450 the following hand takes place. I am in BB with a raise to 15 from 1st position deep stack at table and 2 deep stack callers I call with 10 8 hearts. Flop comes J 9 9 two diamonds. I check and V1 original raiser bets 20 everyone folds to me. I call for the implied odds. Turn is a 7 of spades, I check and V1 bets 35 I decide I am up against over pair or AK so I flat call not fearing the flush and trying to sell that is what I have so that if it misses I can get paid. Turn is A of hearts, I lead out for 50 and V1 reraises to 100, I am about to come over the top when I decide he has been running good and AA is within the range I put him on so I just called. V1 tables AA and responds by saying I thought you only had a busted flush or I would have put you all in. I can not believe the way this trip is going. From that point on everything turns. I have people shove on me when I have boats, call off their stack on gut busters, and the most memorable hand comes when I am in the big blind and with 2 limpers in front the small blind says he is going to blind shove. He then says I will wait to see what you do and limps. I look down and find bullets and raise to 20 both of the limpers call and SB shoves another 110 blind. I have about 800 at this point and shove behind him. Everyone folds and I dodge the flopped flush draw when he shows K3 of spades. End session up $1010. Overall profit for the trip was over $600 and I will be back for the UFC fight at the end of the month. Sorry for such a long report.
I can remember many times at low limit when I slow played top set and got sucked out on by some weird ass straight or flush draw. Now I put a pot sized bet in whenever I flop a set and hopefully will chase them away. Rather win small than lose big.
Nice report, thanks for the read. Sorry to criticize your play, but you got a bit what you deserved when the guy with AA rivered a full house. You had no business in the hand due to the pre flop raise, you chased a straight on a paired board with a flush draw as well (biggest mistake to me) and when you improve your hand on the turn you check/call a small bet, when your hand has zero chance to improve. oh well, you won in the end, so I guess thats what matters.
happy poker
Nice report. It might look attractive to check AA on an ace high flop but to be perfectly honest I've seen it so often that the first thing I and a lot of other people think when someone makes that check after raising preflop is he has AA so its trap value is not that great. Much better to lead out and build a pot, free cards can be dangerous as you found out. If you bet the pot or near it and he calls with a gutshot draw the chances are he didn't have implied odds to do so, those calls you want all day.
Great report.
I think you were hit up with a case of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). The typical 1/2 NL game at the MGM has lots of people with little if any idea what they are doing. They just want to gamble. Like you saw, there are loads of people who will slow play any monster hand, or call with any bit of garbage. The thing to do is you have to forget about doing fancy stuff and just play solid poker. Bet your hands when you make them. Keep the pot small when your hand is not so hot.
One of the recurring facts in your report was you slowplaying big hands.
Slow playing is almost never a good idea in the MGM 1-2 because almost anyone with any draw will come along for almost any amount (like your 72 guy) and you have to punish them. If you try to get fancy, your slow play will give you small pots (like your quad hand) or allow idiots to catch you with their thin draws.
Don't worry about losing people. Sometimes you will, but most of the time you will get paid off big time when you have a hand. Save the slow plays and other FPS to bigger games with better players.
Dead Money,
Maybe did not set this hand up properly but I had over 250 big blinds in the hand up against AA I called the 15 with 3 others in the pot because they all had big stacks. How do I not call the 20 to "chase" when I am getting 4 to 1 with implied odds of much greater and I am now heads up most likely against an overpair. I check/called after I hit because I wanted to get more money, I had put him on an overpair and the flush draw was not a concern of mine. That is precisely why I did not reraise all in on river when the A came. AA through JJ were in his range with AK AQ possible. So yeah I will check call and give the opportunity to someone to 2 out me in hopes of taking down a much bigger pot. It would have worked because when he saw my hand he commented "I would have put you all in but I thought you were just on a busted flush draw". This is not tournament poker my goal with a hand like 10 8 suited is not to win $100 it is to take someones whole stack. It did not work out but I do not think I played this hand wrong.
As for the AA that got top set I appreciate the feedback. I usually only bet that about 20% of the time with that board. After playing in Vegas all weekend I agree that needs to be a higher percentage. But I need to have someone make something to get paid and again I am ok with people getting a free look at a gutbuster. I am such a big favorite on a board like that it is hard not to try ad get some value. At MGM I would bet it more often, but this hand took place at the Venitian and I thought the table played much tighter. Oh well I guess it is lesson learned.
Deuces
Thanks for your reply. Always good to have your detailed thinking. I would really like feedback from other people on the forum on this hand, as to me it was clear I would not play it that way, regardless of my read I would not check call a made straight on a paired board with a possible flush draw when the pot is already not bad at all. Maybe I am totally wrong. Comments welcome.
I will make a few comments on the last hand of note (checking a made straight with two diamonds and a pair on the board):
Villians action in the hand is entirely consistent with J-J (a flopped full house) unless he is the type of player to bet really big with a strong hand. He keeps betting, but really small relative amounts. Sometimes this denotes that a player trying to build a pot without scaring anyone away.
Wouldn't a hand like A-K of diamonds also be in the villian's range? If so, your opponent has more outs than you think and you gave him a relatively cheap river card without ever acting to protect your hand.
All told, I give your play of the hand mixed reviews. I don't like the idea of going hog wild trying to build a pot with a straight on a paired board, so I don't mind how passively you played the hand (although somewhat for the wrong reasons). On this hand, I might have played similiar to you to avoid building a big pot, for deception, and to set up a larger sized river bet if a third diamond didn't show up. I do find fault with saying "I check called after I hit because I wanted to get more money". That was the turn and you failed to build a pot with only one betting round left. The pot after the turn was roughly $115 and then you only bet $50 on the river. What if the Villian held Kings? Yes, he would call your $50 river bet, but likely would have also called had you min raised on the turn ($35 more) and then bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot on the river (pot on turn would have been $185, so bet $100 instead of $50). In other words, betting instead of checking would have netted you an additional $85. That, to me, is getting more money in the pot (and, unfortunately, how to lose more when Villian hits a long shot on the river).
Note: I don't love the min raise against a really loose, aggressive player who might re-raise with hands my straight is currently beating (unless I am pretty sure I have him beat). I don't necessarily want to play for a deep stack with the board paired. A min raise is a better play against an ABC type of player who will only shove with the nuts OR against a loose player who will call with any type of hand (in the first case, can help you define your hand. In the second case, doesn't define your hand much but builds a pot).
I really commend you for your restraint when check raised on the river - way to protect your stack.
allin67,
Thank you for your response. your analysis of why I should have raised makes perfect sense. I agree a small raise in this situation would have kept villan around and increased what I would have gotten out of pot. One thought, JJ is in the villans range but I did discount this because with 4 people in the hand another pair seemed much more likely due to the $20 lead out bet. I read this much more as an informational bet than a let's keet people around bet. As for AK or AQ suited it is true that this is in the range but a check on the turn helps me if this is the holding. It keeps the pot smaller and now a 50 dollar bet on river keeps the pot smaller. I am still 80% against these holdings and I am not chasing them away with a bet on turn. My read was an overpair, with that read I made the wrong play on the turn and do appreciate the feedback.
Poker is tough because you never know for sure what your opponent has. Since you have to be a bit concerned about a full house (i.e. that you are drawing dead), it's hard to make a value bet on the turn. However, you said a check on the turn helps you if you know your opponent is holding a diamond draw. I might agree with you if you grow the pot to a point where you become pot committed regardless of a diamond falling on the river (that is, if checking will help you get away from the hand if a diamond hits). However, I could also imagine there being variables that would scream for a bet here. Imagine your opponent was some combination of tight-weak, a calling station, and/or an ABC player who would not bet a missed flush on the river (but would call a roughly half pot sized bet on the turn with a flush draw). I think this described the majority of players at a $1/$2 game in Vegas. This is your last chance to get money off of this player. If you fail to bet against this type of player with a flush draw, 80% of the time they will fold on the river without putting another dime in the pot. They will only put more money in if they have you beat. That's not a very good situation for you.
I am better with checking the turn against a maniac when I have a good bluff catching hand because this type of player will often bluff the river when they miss their flush. What would suck here is that with a diamond on the river, there are no hands a player can be representing that I can now beat (assuming a big bet means a big hand, if they are not bluffing). Most players would check something as strong as an over-pair on a pair board with three of the same suit - so your hand has really shrunk when that third diamond hits. But, I probably have to call a maniac's bet if his perentage of bluffs seems reasonably high...
Being out of position, with two diamonds on the board (must discount your outs by at least one out), with a pair on the board, and with only $15 invested thus far, I tend to agree with the posters who said you should have folded after the flop. Your call set you up for some potentially tough decisions. It's amazing how more conservative play can avoid many of these situations....
I think that drawing dead to Jacks is very unlikely in this situation and precisely the reason I would not fold on the Flop when getting 4 to 1 to expressed odds and bigger implied odds. Does the 15 dollar preflop raise fit the desciption of a good player in early position with JJ yes. However this same player in early position is most certainly going to check with 2 players left to act and let someone else do the betting if he flopped a boat, to get paid he needs someone to make a hand. it is true that I do not know what he is hoding, but the story was not adding up to a flopped boat. I got lucky that I checked/ called the turn because the A came on river and saved me a big chunk of my stack. However in the future I would bet this more often to get more money in the pot as you stated in earlier post. It is true that there are tighter plays that keep the decision making easier, but I have also found that in deep stack cash games it is hands like this that usually win you someone's whole stack. I think another important thing to remember about deep stack cash games is that preflop hand values have less advantage precisely because of the deep stack nature, Although I did not like my position, 4 handed this is exactly the kind of hand that takes someone's stack.
One last note I will be in Vegas again this weekend playing at venitian and MGM if anyone is going to be there let me know.