i just finished reading your report,and i truly enjoyed it.I often see the same thing when i play bad players and 5-7 guys to a flop and thats usually a 1-2 or 1-3 game.

My question is what limits should i play to avoid this problem.

Now I have all the answers, fantastic.

Agree that the Excal is a poor room, but apart from that, I disagree with just about every word of your trip report!

If you object to playing with foreigners, stay the hell at home in Texas!

You will quite often come across women dealers who are not tall enough to reach the extremes of the table. What is the problem with helping her out by pushing your bets forward a couple of inches??

You are so, so wrong when you state that you will win more by playing against better players!

Every player approaches a situation differently. If you read all the available books and play pretty tight with only good hands then you will probably be better served to play against better players. If you can withstand the variance and can afford multiple buy-ins from you making the correct calls, raises, etc and still getting sucked out on, then playing with a bunch of weak players will be much more profitable in the long run.

I don't have a huge bankroll and play in games where I tend to play scared because I can't continue to buy in when I get sucked out on. This effects my winning and play a lot, So I tend to like a less fishy game. If I could ever get over that I would make much more money in games where you have 6 people to a flop with a 15 raise. The thing in those games are, if you continuation bet you better hit it to 80-100$ and if your wrong, well, you better buy back in, or better yet you just don't continuation. I have a friend that plays in some local underground games that I play in and he gets down sometimes 700-1000 early on but generally cashs out a profit, sometimes pretty big. He was up 10-12K for 2007. Me on the other hand might get down 300$ then inche back up to down 40$ and feel like a big winner. These games have about 4-5 maniacs and I play to scared. Now in games where a 15$ preflop bet is remembered and respected I do much better. I had to open my game up a little and risk more to continue to play with those folks but I still didn't feel comfortable. Good example, 3 weeks ago, I'm playing, I'm on the button, UTG, maniac raises a 7 pot to 37, 4 callers, I have to call even holding 68 suited. This is a call that I never would have made, but I know that a least one of the blinds will call probably not raise, and that the UTG maniac will pop it up aleast 100 on the flop. I miss the flop and there is a bet and a raise occurs in front of me and I have to fold. My whole point is, in a wild game you get paid off if you hit (that pot got up to around 600$ and was won by something like 1 pair) and you can't afford to play odds and make 37 preflop calls with junk if you can't go deep. I also found that maybe some of these players aren't as week as I thought. They were playing me and not their cards. If I were raising from out of position they knew I had paint of big pairs and were calling with what I considered trash, like 89 suited. If they hit, and sometimes they were with a flop that I found to be in my favor, they made me pay for it. So I adjusted. Main point on all this is play the style and game that you are most comfortable with. For me it is with stronger players, however, I keep going to my local games in the hopes that I will hit a heater and take down a few grand.

You would have to be a complete idiot to think this is a bad thing.

@Trill Texan

I know that dealer from the Excaliber to! He kept asking every hand for players to make sure they tossed the chips to the center as he had short arms and a big stomach. Another dealer had a stick to grab the chips. The best was when "short arm man" got some players to toss their antes in to the middle, as he wanted, but then someone raised and he could no longer tell what was who's bet!

I like Excaliber, as it was a great place to start, but just too funny about short arm man!

I rarely make a negative comment about a trip report but pretty much all strategy or advice in this one is completly wrong. If you are a new player or one that is trying to learn, completely ignore the report. Continue to look for fish and weak passive calling stations and you will without a doubt win money in the long run at low limit Vegas tables. and god forbid someone carry on a converstion in their native language AFTER THE HAND IS OVER.

@psand

You would have to be a complete idiot to think this is a bad thing.[/quote]
Ya know that's pretty harsh and is darn close to "you're an idiot", which is out of line.

I agree with you that 4-5 people calling a raise is good because you're ahead and people are tossing money in your pot. But it leads to much higher variance as people will draw out or suck out on you more often AND it means you'll raise more often and create more big pots. For someone with a limited bankroll or who simply doesn't like reloading every 30 minutes, high variance isn't a good thing.

Really though, if 4-5 call a raise, raise more until you find the pain point. With a $150 stacks if multiple people will call a raise to $20, that's a gold mine. Shove on the flop if you're still good and dare them to suck out on you.

I'm with AdRock on this one. 4-5 callers preflop is a gold mine and if you want less callers then bet more preflop. Period. In a $100 or a $200 game, 5 callers puts over $100 in the pot. If you hit the flop, push all in and you've doubled up.

I've played Excalibur several times over the last couple of months and there is money there. The place has plenty of donks who'll give you their cash. Why go to the Wynn if you're not a Wynn-caliber player. Playing against "bad players" pays off over time if you're making the right calls and playing a solid game.

The key (as someone else pointed out above) is that you will probably need to have multiple buy ins, a stomach for suck outs and patience.

I certainly agree that playing donks can be every so frustrating. The point about being adequately rolled is important. Tighten up your game in this situation and bet your good hands. You'll win eventually.

@AdRock

You would have to be a complete idiot to think this is a bad thing.[/quote]
Ya know that's pretty harsh and is darn close to "you're an idiot", which is out of line.

[/quote]

Okay well maybe its harsh. But look at what the guy is saying in his post. He is sayting that you make more money from playing against solid players than you do against bad players (BTW I don't necessarily agree iwth his belief that loose = bad).

How can a table full of solid players all make money?

I use to play at the excalibur years ago. I worked at a golf course in Illinois until I recently retired. I had nov-feb off and I use to go to vegas for 3 month during this time. What a time--poker, BJ(i use to count cards but not since 1991--they made it hard on counters so it wasn't worthwhile). Went to alot of shows and nightclubs. Just hung around.

Anyway, the excalibur was really really loose. They have a $2-6 limit game then. Once I had AA on the button. Everybody called $2 and I raised to $8. EVERYBODY called, even the SB & BB. Flop was 4-8-facecard. Everybody check, I bet $6 and 5 called. Anyway, the board was none threating at the river. 5 called me all the way and one guy had 4-8 for 2 pair. He said--I put in $2 might as well call your raise

A little while later, I got AA again in the SB -- everybody called the $2 then called my raise to $8. This time, I lucked out and won a big pot.
These kind of loose games, can give someone a heart attack.

I'll never play in these really loose games again. It's alright to have several loose players--good players know when to stay out of a hand.

I wanted to second (third? fourth?) the points made by PSAND. The Excalibur is one of my favorite places to play precisely because the players are so bad. I agree that 5-6 people see the flop with a raise. I had a number of memorable hands there - but I always got my money in good (either I had a great draw or the best hand going in, usually with position and/or multiple callers if I had a draw). Yes, I suffered some horrible beats. The times I hit, however, I got paid much more than I would have against good players. I have made a lot of money in this room, precisely because the players continue to put their money in when they are defeated. Yes, you have to get cards in this room (and exhibit some patience in this regard). I don't now any room that doesn't require you to get dealt some hands. Honestly, I am surprised that some one who considers themselves a good players is struggling so much with this room. On my last trip, I got demoralized after a few small losses (despite being way up on the trip). So that I could leave Vegas on a high note, I choose Excalibur over all other Vegas poker rooms as my last stop on the trip. I did this precisely because I thought my odds of winning at Excalibur were higher than anywhere else. Excalibur didn't disappoint. The players were, by a fair margin, the worst I played against in my four day trip. However, I must also admit that everyone has a different style, and this room may not be for everyone. Clearly, those who care about smell, cocktail waitresses, and ambience should go elsewhere. For me, I am drawn to Excalibur's high concentration of fish....

I have to agree with the thoughts of most everyone else here. If you hate playing at a table full of fish the problem is probably not the fish. 5-6 players calling raises into every flop is a very good thing, just so long as you are not one of the 5 or 6 every time. Sit back, wait for strong starting hands, get your money in good and you will make good money over the long term. Really good money in fact. It is a different style of play to be sure. You aren't going to be bluffing at this kind of table. But you will get paid. While it might be less fun in some respects, you will make more money at a LAG table than at a table full of solid players. Alot more.

Allin67 may be drawn to the excal by the high concentration of fish. I am drawn there by the hunks promoting the "THUNDER FROM DOWN UNDER". YEAH baby.

Don't forget that you get to spin the wheel with Aces cracked. It always feels awesome to lose a couple hundred bucks with Aces, then get to spin the wheel and win $20. OH YAH BABY!!

Yes they're weak and loose at the excalibur. I also find it hard to play through a crowd, and have had mixed results short-term at the Excalibur. I'm used to 5max 100NL online. But there is no doubt in my mind that this is one of the best (read most profitable) places to play in town. Not for pretty waitresses, or great surroundings, but for profit.

Variance will be high, so it's probably best avoided if you don't want the swings.

Talking in a foreign language. Gosh! You lot misspell and mispronounce our words, we don't complain.

I remember the girl with the ruler and I have to ask, how hard is it for us to have a little consideration? Several dealers at Excalibur and other rooms repeatedly have to stretch and ask for chips to be passed. Are we so arrogant and lazy that we can't put the chips more than 5mm over the line? The fact that people kept ignoring their obvious difficulty annoyed me, not the other way round.

@allin67

I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with this one. The OP considers himself a good player. He might be good for his home game, but that is quite a bit different then playing in any casino.

How many times have we seen players describe themselves ad TAG, but then when they detail their play of hands, they show they are no where near TAG? TAG is such an unusual personality trait that must be cultivated through years of practice. A good portion of guys actually making a living at poker are probably not TAG.

5-6 people seeing the preflop raise, how much of a raise was it? Bumping to $7 might get everyone to fold in your homegame, but $12 is the minimum bet to get people to consider to fold in a standard 1/2 game. Try $17, a guy I know bumped it to $50 preflop here in Florida (1/2 100 max buy in), and got _callers_.

Additionally, many players think, hell there is 4 people in the pot, my 83 off might be good, "call!"

People are in Vegas to gamble, even these loose poker players are super tight compared to others. I sat at a $10 min. Blackjack table a couple of weeks ago, guy buys in for 900 and proceeds to bet 200/hand. If he loses one double down half his buy in is gone. What a dummy. He was busto in like 6 hands.

We can all learn from the casinos. When a slot sucker/player hits a jackpot they are celebrated, just as we should rejoice when someone hits a two outer on us.

@psand

You would have to be a complete idiot to think this is a bad thing.[/quote]
Ya know that's pretty harsh and is darn close to "you're an idiot", which is out of line.

[/quote]

Okay well maybe its harsh. But look at what the guy is saying in his post. He is sayting that you make more money from playing against solid players than you do against bad players (BTW I don't necessarily agree iwth his belief that loose = bad).

How can a table full of solid players all make money?[/quote]

Psand I agree with you 100...no 99%. ( I would probably have passed on the "idiot comment" other than that..100%) In fact when I read that I thought that maybe the OP had it backwards and was just typing too fast!