While I can't comment on specific rulings in the room, I will respond to the theme of your trip report: Tourists BEWARE. Whether a player is a local or a tourist the rules apply the same to each player. I have had to rule against both locals and tourists. I try to make my rulings as impartial and fair as I can. I also try to explain or sight our rule or policy when I make a specific ruling.

I will admit that there are some advantages to being a local. Whether it is in Vegas or in your hometown casino. Each room has its own rules, policies, perks and promotions. A regular will know the best way to take advantage of each of these. And a tourist might not know that some things, like comps, exist or even to ask for them.

While I can't guarantee that I will make 100% perfect decisions. I promise to listen to both sides of the situation and my dealer's perspective. Then make my decision based on those facts and our rules.

Perry

I have done fine at South Point. I like the room. It does have more locals but thaqt does mean the game is any tougher to be honest. The room is good. The most difficult thing to deal with is when the graveyard manager wears his pink shirt.....

It's not pink, it is salmon....

Without sounding too conceited allow me to say that if there was a local that played at South Point that ever received preferential treatment it should be me. There are certainly other players who have logged more hours but I not only know everyone on the graveyard shift but am friends with most of the staff. I tip better than most and even do favors such as taking pictures of Ashley for her NFL picks. Having said all that it should be noted that I have NEVER received preferential treatment at South Point; i.e., I have never been moved up to the front of the line on a wait list, especially specifically over a tourist.

The dealer here in question made a mistake. It happens, get over it. You'll see dealers make similar mistakes from the South Point to the Bellagio, where by the way you will find amongst the dealers three of the biggest douche bags that ever walked the earth. But does that mean that all tourists should avoid that poker room? Of course not. And I can't speak for all of the floors as I primarily play grave, but people like Perry are known and respected around town for a reason. And it's not because he favors the locals but rather because those who are familiar with the staff at the Point know that they run a tight ship while keeping the games fun for both locals and tourists alike. The $1-$2 NL game at South Point is one of the best in town amongst the "local" casinos and this would not be the case if tourists were treated as badly as this report is making it sound.

socalvegasmk- I'm sure you are really doing favors by taking pictures of Ashley....

@Clem2754

Ha! Funniest thing I've heard all day and I've been up 2 hours.

has to be one of the worst titles ever for a post...do you work for the Enquirer?

if we remove the hot-button terms from the title post, tourist and local, and refer instead to player A and player B...
seems to me that if the poster's account of what happened is mostly factual....that player A tabled his hand and player B mucked hers, i can't think of any situation where the house would rule in favour of player B.

so, either the house made a very curious ruling, or the story is missing some key components. perhaps the dealer accidently mucked player B's hand? i don't know.

i do agree that three of the worst dealers anywhere in north america work the bellagio...and they've been there way too long. and one of them is named mary.

It's unfortunate that they had to chop the pot. Mucked cards are mucked cards and should be treated as such. Phil Ivey mucked a flush during the main event this year, it happens to the best of us. Somtimes dealers make mistakes and the players suffer because of it. This situation seems pretty clear to me, as far as what should have happened, so it sucks that they had to split. I once saw a dealer reach to their left, pull a players hole cards and the $5 chip on top of said cards and pull them into the muck. The dealer said, "you have to protect your hole cards" and that was it. The player claimed to have flopped a set but couldn't get anywhere with their arguement.

Of course what got responses was the situation leading to the chopped pot, but what caught my attention here for my own purposes was the report of an infestation of hours-logging freeroll scammers. One of my least favorite desert insects. It's been a while now since I last went to South Point, even though I liked the place just fine, and I was thinking I was overdue to get down there again, but if I'm likely to be stuck with several dead stacks at the table much of the time I'd rather not bother. I am curious how common that (a bunch of free-rolling walkers tying up multiple seats) is there nowadays, and if it tends to happen less or more at any particular predictable times or days or possibly parts of the calendar related to their freeroll qualifying.

On the other matter of the allegation of unfair treatment in favor of local regular players, I can easily understand why someone might feel that way, but my own experience there in the past hasn't been like that. I'm not well known by the poker staff in that casino, so most of them would probably figure me for a tourist and treat me like one if they had any reason to notice me at all, but I haven't had any sense of favoritism or seen any evidence of a lack of integrity by the staff during the dozen or so sessions I have played there in the past. It has been months now since the last time I was there, but that was my experience then for what it's worth. Personally I'd be more likely to suspect a simple garden variety mistake or cascading set of mistakes falling into the category of “stuff happens” rather than any deliberate mischief motivating what happened.

I played at Southpoint but i cant concentrate playing Poker, i just keep eyeing Perry and his nice physique and because of that I have mucked the winning hands twice but it's ok for as long as I see Perry.

Perry ohh Perry you had me at hello.

@theCOkid

Inf like this is invaluable. Would that we got more of it both pro and con. South Point will never see me.

@alf1052

Inf like this is invaluable. Would that we got more of it both pro and con. South Point will never see me.[/quote]

Letting one person's visit where they experienced a dealer mistake affect whether or not you will play in a certain room is silly. Many people on this site, including myself, have talked about the good sides of Southpoint's poker room. Yes, clearly the dealer made a mistake here. But once her hand is tabled, then the floor has to do his best to make a fair decision, and this was one of those really tough circumstances where no one will be happy with the decision. I'm not sure what you would try to gain from reviewing the tapes. Don't try and make this into a locals vs tourists call, because I highly doubt that is the case. This argument comes up every single time something bad happens to a tourist in a locals-dominant room. Instead, take it for what it is...a dealer error. In fact, you should consider yourself lucky that you got half the pot considering it seems you had the losing hand the entire way.

@mauihaole

Inf like this is invaluable. Would that we got more of it both pro and con. South Point will never see me.[/quote]

Letting one person's visit where they experienced a dealer mistake affect whether or not you will play in a certain room is silly. Many people on this site, including myself, have talked about the good sides of Southpoint's poker room. Yes, clearly the dealer made a mistake here. But once her hand is tabled, then the floor has to do his best to make a fair decision, and this was one of those really tough circumstances where no one will be happy with the decision. I'm not sure what you would try to gain from reviewing the tapes. Don't try and make this into a locals vs tourists call, because I highly doubt that is the case. This argument comes up every single time something bad happens to a tourist in a locals-dominant room. Instead, take it for what it is...a dealer error. In fact, you should consider yourself lucky that you got half the pot considering it seems you had the losing hand the entire way.[/quote]

There were two parts to the post and most here are focusing on the last half to the exclusion of the first. I appreciate Perry's answer re rulings. However, I would be interested to hear an answer to the allegation that locals were given preferential treatment as it relates to being seated at a game ahead of tourists and being allowed to leave a table, all in the name of qaulifying for the free roll. On that front a single person's experience, if true, is actually very valuable.

I can't speak about locals jumping ahead of tourists as far as the list goes, simply because I have no idea if it was the case. As for players leaving their seats in order to qualify for a freeroll, absolutely this does happen. Freeroll chasers try to play as little as possible when trying to qualify. Southpoint is particularly vulnerable to this due to not having the Genesis Bravo system, which would allow them to lobby players right when they leave the table. So yes, in many cases, you will find players leaving their seat for 30-60 minutes at a time in an attempt to gain hours without playing. This is why many people feel freerolls are a bad thing, even though they technically fill the room.

I never did or will understand the need for some to defame or disbelieve the experiences and reports of others. No one can or should interpret the feelings of the person on the scene. One may have a different take but that in no way detracts from the original report. Again, this info is very valuable and I will treat it as such. Looking forward to the new room in City Center. I'll be there Dec. 20. Anybody who gets there first please share.

I'm not discrediting the report at all, but more so criticizing how literal you are taking it. If you let one dealer error (which is what this report is about, as I believe the floor person was in a no-win situation here) or one negative report affect whether or not you play in the room, then you will not have a single poker room in Vegas to play in. I can go through all the room/trip reports and I guarantee you that I can find you a negative report from Venetian all the way down to Circus Circus. My point is, take it for exactly what it is, that being one person's negative experience due to a dealer error.

Speaking generally, without me presuming to know if this is happening here or not, the kind of freeroll scamming situation hurting the cash games and turning away legit players as described in the original post does not necessarily mean anything intentional by the staff to favor local freerollers over others; in fact in my experience with this sort of thing, in a few other rooms having that problem getting out of hand, it is lack of any particular floor staff & management intention about it that is most often likely to be the source of the problem.

If the freeroll is considered quite valuable, and the room does not have a systematic way of preventing phantom players logging hours along with a determination to rigorously, consistently, and quickly enforce a system to pick up the dead stacks, then everybody who wants to play local & tourist alike will be prevented from getting into a game while the freeroll insects tie up the seats forever without playing, and the games will suck for lack of actual bottoms in seats playing hands even though the floor may see the game as "full." I haven't seen rooms where I thought the staff wanted this to happen, since it really hurts their business a lot eventually if it goes on for long. What I've seen is that it is sometimes passively allowed to happen when folks running the place are simply oblivious to it, and then wonder why the drop isn't so good anymore, and games keep breaking up, blaming it on "the economy" or sociology or the moon or something.

If a freeroll is worth much, and if it can be readily scammed, then any scammers within 100 miles will find it and set up shop there, and the most common player in the room will be named "Miss(ed) Blind." Count on it. Without the staff intending anything of the kind.

Or, maybe they're all really sleeping with Perry or sumpin'. There's just no accounting for taste in that department.

It may be that you are right. I, on the other hand, question whether or not it was an ERROR. Then again my legal training does not enhance my disinterestedness. Everyone is guilty until proven innocent in my courtroom.

@mauihaole

@alf1052 [/quote]

If you have legal training, then you definitely should know how absurd it is to be casting judgement when you've only heard part of the story. You've heard the story from one person, who obviously disagrees with what happened, and you've already made up your mind. I pity any person who lands in your courtroom.

The video was reviewed, the cards were no where near the muck, and they were origionaly shown before being thrown to the center of the table, where one landed face down.
They were pocket 5's.

No one EVER jumps infront of the line EVER! It is a fireable offence for the Cashier and the floor person, it never happens at the South Point, ever.

i fell off the fence here........yes tourists beware.......in fact not just here anywhere........ poker requires utmost caution....like driving a car......shooting a gun.... is there one among us that knows the rules???? i believe OP's point of contention is the point here... "no-one from south point would review the tapes" well the tapes are there to protect the "casino" lol......yes they are! not the customer. mostly from employee theft... are they not? i have been to south point, b4/ & after south coast... one of the worst most blatant incidence of collusion(yes, cheating!) i have experienced took place there 14 months ago. the poor decision in that case was made not by the floor(not present at that moment) but by a dealer. yes OP has every right to take his business elsewhere and we must respect his good judgement. the RULES should rule....neither locals nor tourists... and we must commend OP for using the forum as forums are intended ...a sort of civic nobility he displayed by speaking up / advising others... Has poker morphed into some sort of socialist ponzi scheme where rules are vague and often hard to even find....?? percentage of vegas players that are organized cheats hmmmm? off the top of my head 10-14%

SO.....! Is south point (its poker room/ agents, employees,etc.) intentionally stealing from its patrons??!! OF course NOT . perhaps 10-14% of south point(room, agents, employees) are AND probably much less! lol
so be advised south point is not the only game in town that " gives the tourists a bad name" and surely these goings on that are all over town and beyond are no reflection on south point as a resort destination.
to you the OP the pokerroom list of "violators" is long & winding! much longer & far more treachorous the list of renegade groups of cheats, hustlers that come and go....
Where are you Greg Raymer ?? to defend the rights & stacks of the honest & well intentioned competitors that are branded tourists "fish" "donks" "noobs"
busy it appears legalizing online poker. Still???!!! $@^!&*^%$
to you the OP try MGM, bellagio(yes i said it!!) perhaps even planet hollywood(under new poker management after well documented theft & scandal) and Mandalay Bay. and I will be pleased to join you.

A couple of points. I have only played at SP once and it was fine, so I can't comment too much on this specific room.

1. Tourists should beware anytime, anywhere they travel.
2. There are two sides to every story.
3. Regular customers should and do receive preferred treatment everywhere. I take special care of my best customers and consider it good business practice.
4. The floor rulings should be consistent and within the rules posted for that room with no bearing on who is going to benefit.
5. It would take at least 30 minutes to review security tapes and even then, it is my understanding that the cameras in the poker rooms are not that great. I have never heard of a floor ruling being determined by this method ever for these reasons.
6. There are 50 other rooms in Vegas you can play in if you don't like one for any reason. They all have their own little quirks, plusses and minuses.

I think it's valuable to know that the floor made a call like this..I don't think it's a locals vs. tourists thing, but I can see where he might because it's a completely wrong call and not one that I would think should be a hard call to make at the time. I'm not sure this post would make me stay away from south point, but it's good to know because if i see one or two more like it, two or three incidents together certainly could make me hesitant the next time I think about playing there.

@pkaOski88

I have never seated a local in favor of a tourist. As far as leaving the table, we allow a player to leave for 2 buttons, which is somewhat standard in most rooms. this allows you to go and eat without losing your seat. If the game gets short and we have to break it, I give the open seats to the players at the table, not the walkers. Since we don't have the table swipe in system, we can't swipe everyone out that leaves a table for a break. Unfortunately, some players take advantage of that.

There is one house rule that actually favors locals over tourists. Its not designed that way but it does. We allow call-ins. If you call in, your name is on the list for one hour. While this is open to tourists and locals, most tourists don't take advantage of it. I take advantage of it in the rooms that I play in.

I hope this answers your questions.

SPPerry

I am glad people post their experiences as they see them, and I do find these kinds of reports useful when taken in context as one data point with a lot of other information; even more so when a room's staff comes on to fill in more perspective on the picture as they've done here.

The possibility of running into a bunch of empty seat clock watching freeroll hours loggers remains much more of a potential deterrent to me personally than occasional floor rulings.

ADD: When I call a poker room, I'm just glad to hear there IS a list, regardless of where my name might be on it at the moment. I take it as a good sign it is being managed to support existing games, rather than being too quick to open new tables causing games to break down.

I didn't read all of the responses but I must add some perspective about the post and the title. Every story and every poker situation has 2 sides to it and often times it depends who is telling the story. We are all entitled to our comments and opinions (and to defending what we believe to be the truth) but we must do so carefully and with respect to others and their businesses. I have not played at South Point so I can not comment on the truth or validity of the comments but the original poster has made a very STRONG accusation about the way that South Point runs their poker room.

This sort of accusation might just blow over and disappear into the thousands of threads about poker that exist online or it might be picked up by some press organization and blasted all over the news. If that happens, South Point will have a legal and financial basis to conduct an investigation and if it finds that the original poster exaggerated or fibbed just a bit in the story and/or accusation, they will have a basis for a lawsuit to defend their name and reputation.

Since I do not know what happened and since I personally take all comments made on forums with a grain of salt (as we all should), I advise everyone to be very careful with what they post in a PUBLIC forum online. If it is offensive, you might be in some hot water not with the owner of the site but with the person or group you are making accusations against.

Mistakes happen. That's part of live poker. Dealers make mistakes, floors make mistakes, players make mistakes.

While I agree that locals often get preferential treatment, it's the way in which they receive it that is important. For example, in our room, I work very hard to give locals and tourists alike promotions to get them in the room. Because of the time they have to play, these promotions tend to be lucrative to locals. In that sense, locals get preferential treatment.

But when it comes to the rules of the room, they are the same for everyone. In fact, more often than not, the complaint I get is that someone who is a "regular" will feel that they should get different treatment because they are in there more often. Heck, I've had players come in and tell me that they should be allowed entry into tournaments long after the cutoff because they come in 6-10 days a year and talk about the room in their hometown. But the rules are the rules. I might be able to accommodate you in another way, but the game of poker isn't how I do it.

Harrah's has a policy that Diamond card holders and above get to go to the top of wait lists. It's seen as the equivalent of a special line for the buffet or shows. It's not popular when someone else gets bumped, but it's the rule.

Yes, I'm sure there are some places that will give special treatment to regular/local players. But I think it's important to distinguish between preferential treatment and simple errors. In the OP situation, I think it is far more likely that the decision, whether you agree with it or not, was made in good faith. It just happened to go against a tourist.

@pkaOski88
However, I would be interested to hear an answer to the allegation that locals were given preferential treatment as it relates to being seated at a game ahead of tourists and being allowed to leave a table, all in the name of qaulifying for the free roll.[/quote]
OP did not say that locals were seated ahead of tourists. There is not a word in there about that. I believe he's implying that people were forced to sit on a waiting list while players already seated wandered about the casino doing things other than playing poker. 'Course I don't understand why he says tourists had to wait on the list, because EVERYBODY waits on the list.

Well... that's the way the system works. People DO get to stand up and wander around. A few rooms have a 3rd man walking rule that allows the floor to pick up a player to make room for someone on the list if 3 people are gone for a while, but that's rarely enforced and isn't even in the rulebook in most rooms, I suspect.

And yes, this is a well-known and very annoying feature of any room that does hour-based promos without electronic player management at the table. It is not unique to South Point, and it certainly isn't the case that the poker room is intentionally forcing people to wait longer for tables. Rooms that have the electronic gizmos at the table where the dealer punches a button as the player stands up and their hours stop accumulating don't have that problem.

At the same time, these hour grinders are going to accumulate their hours one way or another. If you make them sit in the poker room to do it, they will. So you aren't really going to exactly free a seat for someone else by forcing them to put their fannies in the chair. You'll just have full tables instead of sparsely populated tables.

@SouthPointPerry

I have never seated a local in favor of a tourist. As far as leaving the table, we allow a player to leave for 2 buttons, which is somewhat standard in most rooms. this allows you to go and eat without losing your seat. If the game gets short and we have to break it, I give the open seats to the players at the table, not the walkers. Since we don't have the table swipe in system, we can't swipe everyone out that leaves a table for a break. Unfortunately, some players take advantage of that.

There is one house rule that actually favors locals over tourists. Its not designed that way but it does. We allow call-ins. If you call in, your name is on the list for one hour. While this is open to tourists and locals, most tourists don't take advantage of it. I take advantage of it in the rooms that I play in.

I hope this answers your questions.

SPPerry[/quote]
It does. Two buttons for food seems perfectly reasonable. Thanks for taking the time to come here and respond.

@apollo

OP did not say that locals were seated ahead of tourists. There is not a word in there about that. I believe he's implying that people were forced to sit on a waiting list while players already seated wandered about the casino doing things other than playing poker. 'Course I don't understand why he says tourists had to wait on the list, because EVERYBODY waits on the list.
* * *
At the same time, these hour grinders are going to accumulate their hours one way or another. If you make them sit in the poker room to do it, they will. So you aren't really going to exactly free a seat for someone else by forcing them to put their fannies in the chair. You'll just have full tables instead of sparsely populated tables.[/quote][/quote]
That's they way I read it the first time but upon further review I like your interpration better.

To the extent the house has enforceable rules I do think we are all better off when the grinder is forced to be in their seat.

Two Button rule? Is that only a couple of orbits, less than 30 minutes? By two buttons does that mean two absent buttons? I think the most common rule is to be gone from the table for about an hour.

Most places will also allow for a couple of people to be gone from the table at the same time. This can be frustrating for some people and of course as soon as one person returns another may wander off. Some places try to inforce a Third Man Walking rule to try to keep the table as full as possible but it does take time to get the floor to act and then their are a few variables if that rule gets inforced or not, like having not yet missed a blind, etc.

Some people get fussy no matter what happens and don't understand all the rules. Locals do have an advantage over tourists in that they are more familiar with all the little rules and variences within the rules.

I don't understand why people try to accumulate Freeroll hours by wandering around the casino anyway. What are they doing? Playing machines or table games? The best chance at making any money in a casino is to not play the other games in the casino. Poker is your best chance to win so why not stay in your seat and give it your best effort.

@JoeD

joe it means two absent buttons.

Thanks Perry, I have palyed at South Point several times, nice enough room no problems for me, good action. I get my little comp and go have dinner at the mexican place. I haven't stopped in late night to see the pink shirt though, maybe soon.

The floor decision was to give the winning hand (fives full) the pot.
It was the player who won the pot that decided to give os half the pot.
This is another case of someone trying to get something they don't deserve. I also don't know that the winner of the pot was a local.

Thanks for taking the trouble to clear up the circumstances of the ruling.

Regarding non-playing freerollers, in my opinion using a two button rule does tend to help a bit, compared to something more vague and open ended or hard to effectively monitor like an amount of time before dead stacks are eligible to be picked up. So good; glad you do that. With a two button rule in use, at least people at the table have some reasonable assurance the empty chairs may not go on that way indefinitely.

Played at SP a couple of times during the last week or so. Saw first hand the abuse of the two buttons collecting freeroll hours game. Table always had a couple of people missing. Occasionally three or four people would be gone at one time, SP could use the third man walking rule for these times.

The two button rule wasn't very affective. The dealers didn't have enough buttons to give all the absent players a second button, therfore only the other players might know if someone was really gone a long time or not. New dealers come and go and don't know who is gone the longest, who should have two buttons, etc. and the floor couldn't enforce anything because there was only one button in front of an empty chair. And of course at times with no list anyway there is no enforcement of the two button rule. At one point there where four seats at the table that could have been filled by players from the list but the floor wanted to open a new table and so then there was no list and again no enforcement of the two button rule. New table gets 10 fresh players and the existing table with palyers there to play is still short handed and has been short handed for three plus hours. Basically two buttons gives a person about an hour, then the floor may get informed, may not, this takes another several minutes, then no action may be taken anyway due to no list, or the floor opening another table, etc, so one hour becomes two or more. The two button rule wasn't being enforced very well, kind of worhtless when you don't have buttons for the two button rule.

I'm lucky, our local card room enforces third man walking and two missed blind buttons. It features jackpots as well (like it or not, it's the only room worth playing around here) and if a player has one missed blind button, they're ineligible for the bad beat jackpot. I've been at the table when a player with the missed blind opts to wait for his turn rather than post and thus missed out on a good table share; I'm a mean motorscooter and I loved it.

I think the reason a lot of rooms don't use third man walking is that the dealer has to warn the third player of the rule before they leave their seat or it can't be enforced. I got a warning one day when the dealer didn't issue the notice and I asked for a coffee can so I wouldn't have to leave the table.

[Report this postReply with quoteRe: Tourists BEWARE at South Point
by stiveco on 18 Nov 2009 08:12

No one EVER jumps infront of the line EVER! It is a fireable offence for the Cashier and the floor person, it never happens at the South Point, ever][/quote]

Now, now steveco......I too believe the correct ruling was made. It just happened to be against a tourist and he felt slighted. Nothing you can do about that. But, I have worked in the LV poker rooms for over 15 years from dealer to shift manager. I commend you on your policy above. Really. All rooms should and probably do have them in writing some where. However, you cannot tell me that this NEVER happens at the South Point. That is a ridiculous statement. I agree that you probably enforce this as well as preaching it to your staff. All the kudos to you. But you cant make a blanket statement that says it NEVER happens at the SP. It happens at EVERY casino in the world at one point or another. Not that its right, it isnt. Dont get all high and mighty on us! LOL..........Keep up the good work, poker management is a B#@%h!!!!!!!

Time to lock this thread. This is a Trip Report, not the South Point Poker Room Discussion thread.

Please take all South Point poker room discussions over to the appropriate dedicated thread located here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53

Thank you!