Hand Evaluation--Venetian
I was the big blind in a $2/$5 NL. Everyone limped in to the button, which now has $37 in the pot. The button raised to $40. The small blind folded. I re-raised to $80, holding pocket aces, AdAh. Everyone folded to the button, and he called.
The flop. As9s10d. I checked, and the button bet $100. I called. The river was 8d. I checked again, and the button checked. The river was 10s. Holding a full-house (AAA1010), I checked. The button went all-in for $210. I called him. He turned over 10,10 for quads.
First of all, I wonder if I had played this hand wrong. Secondly, some players at the table commented that I should have folded when he went all-in. I told them that I put him at a flush draw or even a straight draw. When the 10s hit on the river, I assumed he had the nut flush or something like that or he was playing A,10 and held tens full of aces.
It could have put him at pocket 10s when he raised to $40 on the button, but at the same time, he could possibly trying to steal the blinds, which was $37 when it got to him, and by calling me, he has the odds of almost 3-1.
Even though I am fairly new to the game, I still think I have made the correct call. If it was the final hand of the WSOP, I would make the same call.
In hindsight, even if i had bet on the turn, i don't think he would have folded with a set of 10s.
You played it just fine. Making a habit of folding aces full in that spot would make you extremely exploitable. You're supposed to go broke in that spot.
you played it just fine, no way I ever put anyone on quads and when they have it you just have to suck it up and take the loss.
Thought I saw one WSOP when Sammy Farha had a full house and ran into quad sixes and was out of the main event in like three hands.
Here it is, was in 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcvrZqHa ... ure=relmfu
Hey Boat,
Did you make your screen name based on this hand, lol?
Anyway, was there more history to this hand from the perspective of your table image and V's table image? Even against the nittiest of nits I'm not folding here. Even considering a fold is crazy. You can only consider folding if you are the biggest rock on earth, and V has 1000s of hours of history with you, and knows you only show down the immortal nuts every single time.
Who the F@$# are these players that are talking about making this laydown? I would probably lose my mind if somebody said that after this hand. Then I would rebuy and get aggro as hell against them as they are obviously exploitable when they talk about folding the second nuts.
However, I do have some comments about the hand otherwise:
1)Need to know table images and stack sizes, but it looks like you started the hand with $390 and V had you covered.
2)I hate the min-raise pre flop, and you can read many articles about why the min raise is so dreadful but you can sum it up by saying that in low stakes NL, min-raises generally mean "I have the nuts", and they also never price anyone off their hand. That said, if you are 50 or older and a big nit, I know that I am almost certainly behind 82-18 here pre-flop with pp10s, so I may fold to your min raise considering I can only win $310. If I hit my set 1/8 times and you miss, I would have to stack you every time I hit the set in order to make this call profitable. If you were not a super nit, then I call for the extra $40 every time because I may already be ahead and it's now $40 for me to win $120.
In summary, min raises are bad, take them out of your playbook.
3)The smooth call on the flop was fine, as your effective stacks allow you to easily get the money in on the turn or river as a single bet.
4)The turn check is also fine, for the same reason as the flop and for deception.
5)On the river I think you should be leading out with a shove, not check-calling. You have the 2nd nuts and want to get the money in. You do not want to let V check behind and miss out on the extra $210.
V has tons of worse hands in his range in this hand, including all the other full houses that you beat (88,99,910,810,A10). He also has many other hands you get value from in his range, including JQs, KQs, and maybe some smaller suited spades if he's like me
As this hand played out, he could have easily had suited connectors pre-flop, flopped two pair or an open-ender +/- flush draw. If he had 89, the river counterfeits him so you lose value. If he has any of the other boats, he's likely paying you off, and if he rivers a flush or has a straight, he still may be paying off your shove. (All of this depends on your table image of course).
Overall, don't feel bad, you played the hand fine and are supposed to go broke. I feel like there must have been some type of significant table image/history going on for anyone to not just view this as a standard cooler. And for the retards that said fold your 2nd nuts, just rebuy and start exploiting that weakness all day. I wouldn't sweat this hand for a second.
All that said, there are some good things to learn about the pre-flop and river play in this hand.
One last thing is that you are supposed to go broke here with many worse hands than Aces full, as you are only playing 80 BB effective, so should be stacking off here with many other hands as well.
Hope that wasn't too harsh and somewhat helpful.
Cheers,
TF
P.S. This definitely sounds like the Venetian, the level of nittiness there is generally appalling and ridiculously exploitable.
Unless I'm about 6000BB deep AND know my opponent never raises without the stone cold nuts, I go broke here every time and twice on St. Paddy's Day.
The problem wasn't how you played this hand, but where. You should have dragged down the bad beat jackpot here.
My only feedback is that you may have played this a bit passively on the early streets. On a table where "everyone calls" pre-flop, I think I would have three bet to 3x the 2 bet ($120) That puts about $260 in the pot if he calls PF, then I would have bet, not check the flop; between 0.5x to 0.75x pot. Regardless, all the money gets in and you lose. Sorry.
I agree with Tenesmus. I would have bet at least $100 pre-flop and pushed all in on the flop. The results would have probably been the same given that he flopped a set. You left yourself vunerable giving that there was a flush draw on the flop.
What you left out of your summary was, what was your and V's table image before this hand. If you were super tight, he may have laid it down preflop or post flop if you pushed all in.
I posted about losing to quads at the Venetian also. I can't think of anyone who would have folded given your hand.
I will not make big deal about way you played hand. You slow played the best hand and got sucked out on the river. You must be very new to poker if this play is questionable in your mind. It happens all the time and there is nothing you can do about it. The next time you will have the pocket 10's and you will suck out on someone. That is poker.
Pre-Flop- I don't like the min raise. People often only think of value betting the river. You have the best hand here so why not set yourself up to get as much money in as possible. When it gets to you there is about $80 in the pot. The button's calling range for the additonal $40 is most likely the same as if you would have raised $80. An $80 raise would have set her up better to get the rest of her stack in the pot on later streets.
The mistake you don't want to make here is over betting the pot. This telegraphs your hand and let's players you have trapped (like smaller pp's) get away.
Flop- I don't like the check call here. Same as Pre flop you need to think about betting for value. I would have started the betting with a 2/3 pot bet around 80% of the time. The rest I am going to play for a check raise to mix up my play.
Calling here is a big mistake especially on a board this draw heavy. Any other straight or flush card is going to freeze your opponent if he is not on a draw or you are going to allow him to get there cheaply.
The Turn- As played to this point I can't fault you for playing cautiously here. The check behind is ok. If you bet and the button raises you all in you would have a tough decision.
The River- obviously you think you have the best hand here. Normally I would say lead with a pot sized bet but because of your passive play on earlier streets that would scream full house and let her get away from flushes and straights. Since an opening bet is only going to get called by a hand that will lead out
.e. a smaller boat) I think it is ok to play for a check raise.
Obviously you are not folding here unless the button shows you her cards. Unfortunately, even if you had played this hand better the outcome would have been the same. Don't beat yourself up over it.
I agree with what most are saying. Preflop should have been about $120 instead of $80. The problem with $80 is that you always have a big hand and are never bluff min raising from out of position.
I don't like checking the flop. We represented a strong hand preflop so we'd normally c-bet here, so go ahead and do so. It doesnt need to be big, maybe $75-$100. As played I'd lead the turn and call a shove. The board gets so wet that we need to charge him if he picked up a draw and we can't let a totally free card roll off.
With all that said, you lose no matter what because he's never folding except maybe preflop, and even if he did we still lose value because we really dont want him to fold TT preflop when we have AA.