call them out

if this is as blatant as it sounds, i would leave my chips at the table, simply find the floor manager, and tell them straight up ( out of sight and sound ) what is going on. they have " Eyes " on this, and if several players show a particular betting pattern that suggests genuine collusion, it is in their best interest to get these people tossed. The poker Boom caused poker rooms to explode. They kind of over built, so ones that want to keep afloat, dont need it to get out that they have "teams' scamming the tables. I have a few fav poker rooms, but, if you tell me, say Venetian or Mirage have teams working them, i will just move elsewhere, along with making a complaint to Casino management as well as the Poker Room manager. I wouldnt hesitate to go online and contact Corporate and complain. People who take the time to document and make a real issue out of things, usually get more than a form letter response.

I would start posting what rooms you have seen this in, as I too would love to know. My wife plays cash and tourneys, but she wouldnt know collusion if it fell on her, she would just take it as hyper aggressive play and ignore it or lose her ass to it..

I always recommend that people first share their suspicions with fellow players at the tables where they see this (obviously not those thought to be included in any collusion)....and then with the dealers....and then with the poker room managers. Usually peoples' suspicions about collusion are inaccurate, so doing sufficient 'investigating' before calling out the room in a public forum is beneficial for everyone. But if you notify the room and the obvious cheating behavior continues without them doing anything about it, then ABSOLUTELY call them out publicly. Whatever you decide to do, don't just keep your mouth shut about it...help us all by trying to expose them, but without just crying wolf.

@DPTAZZZ Yeah, collusion is very hard for amateurs to spot and even pros don't watch it closely enough.

Getting management to do anything about it in today's rooms is difficult and risky. You never know which players management might be "in bed with". In the old days there was a rule that allowed any player to demand to see all hands at showdown. I twice busted colluders in 20-40 limit games and both times management took a very active roll in confirming my accusations and black listing the perps. Now, i'm not confident that management has the expertise to spot these things. There should be someone in the "sky" watching players with unusually big stacks, their betting patterns and their partners.

I've run into this at 2/5 games at the Beau in Biloxi and mgt doesn't seem to care. Haven't really seen it widespread in LV. What casinos and games have you encountered in Vegas?

It sounds like your recognize these people. Is that the case? Then you know what to look for as soon as you see them. I would definitely say something to the floor or the manager on duty. Perhaps even before you get into a game, And if they don't do anything about, explain why you're taking your business elsewhere.

Talking to the other players is also a good idea...maybe everyone refuses to play with them. But you have to be sure.

Yeah, you have to say something to everyone you can. I had a collusion situation and until the supervisors did something about it, I told every player at every table they sat. You can only tell the floor and security so many times. Like the social media comment. Nothing stopping you from putting a room on blast who won't do any think and pics of the players up too. There would be consequences but you have to get people's attention on the issue.

@redwhiteandblue I like your attitude but don't think a lone player can have any impact on today's poker room manager. The reason I started this thread is that I am hoping Poker Atlas can develop some awareness of the problem. I mean just generally tell people that collusion is a very real problem and every player needs to watch out for it. In the NL environment, collusion is devastating to the game.

Poker Atlas and other poker sites should take the initiative and try to determine how well equipped each poker room is to monitor and stop collusion. Poker rooms could be rated on their ability to managing collusion.

@lvpapa I think it's a great idea to draw attention to the issue. It's what forums like this are for. But I'm not sure how a site like this could monitor something like that. Casinos aren't exactly willing to give out their security secrets to anyone or publicly talk about how much collusion they've found in their rooms. I think it would good for guys like you and anyone in poker if they see it going to post here and in the reviews section whether they did something about it or didn't.

I,m going to Vegas in june for 3 weeks why don't you name and shame the room you have seen it in and what stakes they r playing at so we can avoid it.

Yeah, you need to call the room out publicly if they're ignoring it. But document what you see to and present to the casino if the staff is blowing it off.

my M8 was over in Vegas about 6 years ago and spoke up at the table about 3 guys who was colluding and basically was told if he wanted to get back on the plane home to keep his mouth shut. He quickly went elsewhere you gotta vote with your feet and report it to security
some very dodgy character working the scams in vegas.

If it means that much then keep working your way up the chain of command. Otherwise play elsewhere. Not much else you can do. Other people will figure it out.

Document it as much as you can and present it to the room manager. If you show you took the initiative to put it all on paper, hopefully management will take it seriously. If they don't, walk and put them on blast.

It would be funny if you got on a table with these guys and whenever they played a hand you just folded and said "You guys are just too good to play against. You have an incredible system" and needled them all night. Players at the table would get the point and know you're onto them. Sometimes public embarrassment is most successful.

@DealMeIn I tried that once. It went like this: I raise to 5xBB in late position with AA. They had both limped. Now first one raises to 20xBB, other calls. I say "it won't work this time guys" and shove $300. One of them has AK suited and calls. He has about a 10% chance of winning but he calls just to save face. He wins. Woe is me! But that's poker folks and collusion isn't. When he called, he knew absolutely there were only two cards I could have.

As blatant as it sounds? Fishy paranoia. Here's what I read:

AP (Not GP) Average Player opens 5xBB with mediocre hand, let's call it a scared 7c7d.

LAG attempts to steal a mediocre 5x with a mediocre hand 3Bet, let's call it JhTh.

TAGLAG wakes up with AsKs, can't really read the LAG's 3Bet, but thinks LAG could muck around with AQ and any number of weaker holdings, but doesn't want to shove preflop, ergo, he, correctly, calls knowing that a 20xBB has a chance of pricing out an overcall from anything TT or below (stack sizes dependent). So, TagLag calls. Back to AP:

AP checks stacks on the 15x to call, there needs to be at least 120BB available after a flop in order to justify calling with a scared 7c7d, and his two opponents have been playing poorly with only 40BB left in their stacks each after the 20x bet, so it's almost always going to the river on this hand, but he decides to call anyway because he can't let go of his weak pair against the two jerks to his left, so he incorrectly calls anyway and the flop comes AKQ; but AP can't get over his paranoia and stacks off against TJ and AK.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the way it's written, you're describing something extremely common at low stakes (too many 3Bet overcalls). So, as far as collusion goes, I don't buy it.

I'm much more worried about the lovey dovey husband and wife sitting next to each other on my immediate left. They have the power to communicate in ways nobody at the table will detect.

Take some xanax and get back to playing. That's my recommendation.

Oh...Trailing thought:

You, hypothetically, posited that you might have a "great" hand like QQ or AK in those spots.

If that's the case, just f'n shove pre-flop instead of calling the 20x.

Your 2nd overcall for 20x pre-flop, in THE SPOT YOU DESCRIBE, is supremely weak if you actually hold AK or QQ; so, if you grow a spine and shove, you never write this post. And, a 40x takedown pre-flop with AK or QQ in that spot is an excellent result.

Stop whining.

The more this rolls through my head, the funnier it gets. Seriously, with the situation you describe, and the way you describe yourself playing your hand in this spot, your line of thinking can be broken down to the following dichotemy:

"Either both Villains have AA/KK, OR they are cheating."

If you don't think they have AA/KK, if you think they're trying to funk you pre-flop while you hold AK/QQ, the obvious choice, for any genuinely GOOD player, pre-flop is the shove.

If you genuinely believe there is some kind of deliberate squeeze here, it means you have a great read on the weak range of hands they are doing it with and have a very real, very immediate, very effective solution in the form of AK/QQ and the words "All In."

Everyone who fed your paranoia on this thread is doing you a GREAT disservice by enabling your leaky rationale. Think about it, hard.

And, when you correct your thinking and find that spine, make sure when you shove all in that you look at the 3Bettor like you're going to brutally slaughter the next 5 generations of his family's offspring (just in case he is actually cheating).

It will make you feel better.

@BustaNines You are exactly right about the correct play and GP should probably be AP. I never got caught in a collusion squeeze myself but I did watch others go down. My example of the AA debacle shows how even a GP can get caught up in collusion systems. The AA thing was the only example that was actually me. I hated that hand but I have been fading those events for 30 yrs so no big deal. All I was trying to describe was that what you are saying about grow a spine and what DealMeIn was describing about calling them out publicly.

At the end of the day collusion is a powerful tool, even against GPs and that is why it is against the rules. Also, these colluders do have subtle communication links like the lovey dovey people.

Wake up man. It's happening and you aren't seeing it. These sites and these posts are intended to help bring this kind of thing to light. Keep in mind that every chip that is taken off the table from APs or even WPs by colluders is a chip what would be available to you...you who sit there trying to follow the rules and give the sucker an even break so that he will come back.

@lvpapa Meh....I feel ya, I really do....it's a pain (literally) any time I'm wasting my table thoughts on attempting to decipher whether or not the two Eastern Europeans have been deliberately dancing around each other for a reason or whether its randomosity.

My thoughtstream is my most valuable commodity at the table, and the last thing I want to waste my brain power on is trying to figure out if someone is colluding. The reason its a literal pain is that I feel confident that I can detect it before the rest of the floor/table, and, like others, doubt the effectiveness of action (using the logic that if it is a good collusion system that evades detection, then my word isn't going to create better detection, ergo I leave). It's a literal pain because my thoughts are much better served planning my next steps. I lose money just wondering about collusion while playing.

The game has changed a lot over the last 40 years; even 15-20 years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone BUT AA/KK overcalling that 3Bet. But, with the evolution of more LAG play, it's relatively common. And, until the baby boomers die off, the majority of poker players will still be an older clan that has difficulty understanding the LAG evolution and adjusting to it, so we would expect them to be suspicious of something they don't understand.

In my ten years of playing seriously so far, I've run into about a million times more false accusations of collusion than I have actual collusion; which is what we would expect from the 90% of players who consistently lose while believing they are winners.

In my ten years of playing, it's rare to sit at a table that DOESN'T have 9 poker experts and 1 silent player; 9 talk about how everyone else should be playing and 1 listens to them all reveal their flaws. 9 walk out losers and the shark leaves with a bloody grin.

In the rare cases I know I'm playing cheaters, it's a case of subtle communication that can only be detected by keeping a keen eye on body language (so, the house isn't going to act on it). And, when I've found 'em, not only would it have been a waste of time to try to get them busted, I've never found them to have nearly as large a stack as they could get by simply playing legit.

It's a wash to me, like finding out the two guys to my immediate left are extra aggressive and I need a table change.

@lvpapa If you want solutions to help others, here's my contribution:

"The Definitive Book of Body Language" by Barbara & Allan Pease

Less than $20 at Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/The-Definitive-Book-Body-Language/dp/0553804723

Yes, I own it. I recommend it. It will help you spot scumbags on and off the poker table, from miles away.

@BustaNines Thanks for the tip and thanks for communicating on this thread. I have been watching the events I describe for about 6 months with the same group. I am a winning player at about the hourly rates expected for each level I play. Nothing fancy, just average. I keep copious records and notes. Every chip at every table I sit down at is potentially mine, but not when there is cheating going on. I have seen this team working at 2 rooms so have moved to my least favorite room to get away from them and to watch for them.

Now that you know how adamant I am about this, you might consider keeping your eyes open. One advantage to knowing what's actually going on is that you can play the situation. The only problem is that you might not have many opportunities to make the plays to foil their plot and in the meantime they are lifting the WPs' chips away from where you can get to them.

@lvpapa No problem. Thanks for not taking my Wisconsin "cut to the chase"/no bullsugar communication style personally (so many of our younger narcissus-like crowd now-a-days have super thin skin that will cause my President to talk to me today about referring to an internal product as "completely unacceptable" instead of the more Californian, "something we could work on," and I'm not a fan of the pu$$ification of America going on right now). It's rare when your parenthetical thought is longer than the original.

Will be moving to Vegas sooner than later when the bankroll allows; just resumed playing recently after a three year break to mend a mental tilt problem and I'm crushing it at lower stakes. Since you don't get many chances to remake yourself in life, I figure a single guy with no hard ties who's about to turn 34 should take his phenom resume and poker skills back to Vegas for a Solo Swing at the big game (had a failed trip out there a few years back with a toobox buddy).

Will hit you up when I arrive. I like you old timers more than the hoodie-glasses-jam session clans and I'll need a few scattered regular table buddies I can steal blinds from ;-p

@BustaNines ***edit*** that was a "toolbox" buddy, not a "toobox." He was an idiot, lieing, clown who developed a gambling (slots, ick) and meth problem in Vegas, ergo = trainwreck toolbox mother....among other things...

My suggestion would be to bypass the poker room managers all together. Kindly ask the poker room manager if you could speak to a casino manager. Poker managers really don't want to get the casino manager involved so they will do more to squash the problem in a timely manner.

Do not play in this game.

Threads like this strike a nerve with me because I once got accused of colluding with a player I've never played with before. The guy making the accusation "called us out in front of everyone," told us that he had been around the block a few times implying that he was too smart to have someone pull that on him (even though he lost his stack playing that hand while he was complaining about it), and his accusations were completely false.

The way the hand played out, I can see why he was suspicious and it was kind of similar to the hand posted in this thread. But I disagree with comments in this thread suggesting that you should quickly call someone out on that in front of the table. The guy that accused me seemed really full of himself and really certain he was right, and he was completely wrong.

I found it very insulting, shocking and even a bit humiliating to get accused like that, and I wish I had done more at the time to defend myself. It also might have affected the mood of the rest of the table to have a guy angrily making those accusations. After reading the comments in this thread, I wonder how many of the other players believed him.

So I guess my main point here is you need to be really sure you know what you're talking about if you are going to call suspicious people out. And maybe ask to see the hand of a suspicious player. That's one thing my accuser didn't do, and I should have offered to show my hand because my play would have made some sense if they saw it.

Also, I'm not saying the OP is wrong. I'm just saying people need to be careful when making these accusations. I've also seen this happen in life outside the poker table. People make false accusations about all sorts of things.