Early moring in Atlantic City

Reports & Blogs by bigchip about Wynn Las Vegas Posted
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So the ife and I went to Atlantic City to see Jeff Dunham, very funny comedain. It's a quick two hour drive from home in Delaware. So I carved out a 4 hour session Sunday moring from 5-9 a.m. to9 play and grab some tired/drunk players at the Taj.

I'd been playing about two hours $1/2 NL. Got run down by the guy on my left hitting both trips in the river and a straight on the river, had about $250 behind when this happened.

Early position, limp/call a $10 raise with A8 diamonds. Flop is Q104, all diamonds. I flop the stone cold nuts, and other than someone holding KJ of Diamonds and redarwing to the straight flush, (in which case we hit a hugh Bad beat jackpot). I am in great shape.

I check called a $15 dollar flop bet and then checked the turn as well, and called a $30 bet when that blanked. The river brought another blank that didn't pair the board. I'm holding the stone cold nuts with my A high flush.

Do I bet the river? Do I check and hope he bets so I can check raise it or (ideally) hope he goes all in? He was a newer player to the game, had only sat down maybe 20 minutes before this hand occured. Open to suggestions an how best to play this hand.

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Comments

  1. theoretically the answer is a resounding yes -enough to make him think that you are trying to buy the pot rather than a value. I say this due to a large % of the time if the player is "decent" he'll check on the river as at that point if he has nothing or nothing so good he'll probably check as well - the thought process he'll og through is he'll ony get a call by a hnad that will beat him. Thus by betting into him, he'll probably call due to pot odds or because he has come this far, and he may actually re-raise thinking you are trying to make a play. So by betting you have a higher probability of getting a call from him then him betting again, and a better probability of him raising you (which you'll instacall) then him calling your check raise if he does bet again on the river. I imagine the lower lfish (unliekly) or top 2 pair are the only hands he'll bet with.
    Only other factor to consider is how this player has been playing if he is uber aggressive or not a very good player than the odds are he is more likely to bet and calling might make sense if it based on the player but generally betting here is more likely to give you more chips
    easystreet
    PS let me know the outcome

  2. I would make a smallish type bet that is likely to be called and leaves plenty of room for him to re-raise. Something like $30-40.

  3. You should bet an amount that looks like you are trying to steal the pot! Do not check to him because he may check back and you get no value at all.

  4. I agree that you have to bet, and attempt to make it looks like a steal, as if you had the Ad and were drawing the whole time and now can only win by betting. I would not go with a small bet here, you have to make it a little bigger than a standard value bet. If the bet is too small he will probably call you with any decent hand like TPTK or or something, which is fine, but if can make your bet a little bigger, and make him believe you don't have much, there is a much higher possibility of him reraising you. I would bet about 60%-75% of the pot.

    All of this is assuming the stacks are a good size here. If this is a short stacker this changes the play significantly.

  5. Your post is not entirely clear, but I will assume you were heads up the entire way, and also assume the other player has you covered, meaning $250 effective stacks.

    Preflop: You are out of position with a hand that can be easily dominated. If the flop comes A-high, you might spew a lot of chips before getting out of trouble. If this were a multiway pot, I think a call can be justified as it is easier to fold TPWK. Heads up, I think a fold is better.

    Flop ($20): You flop the nuts, and are really only vulnerable to a set making a boat. Your goal is to get money into the pot so that you can double up. Villain's range is likely an overpair or big cards. He's likely not going to put more money into the pot beyond a c-bet without a smaller flush, a set, an overpair, or the Kd or Jd (you are sitting pretty if he has KdKx, KdQx, JdJx, or QxJd). I don't mind a check/call on the flop as you look like you are drawing to a big diamond or have a weak queen and are not sure how good it is. However, a small raise to look like you are trying to steal the pot is a better option, as he will call with hands he'll bet on future streets, and will fold hands he would check on future streets, so you likely aren't betting him off a middling hand here with a raise. Also, getting money into the pot now is a good thing as another diamond on the turn likely slows him down. If you do raise, I think make something less than a usual 3x raise, so make it an enticing $40 straight. The key here is you want to build the pot, and you have to start early to make the river payoff easier to accomplish.

    BTW, not sure if the straight flush hits that your hand will qualify for a badbeat jackpot; usually both cards need to play from both hands. In any event, you want to know the house rules before you gack off a big stack and find out you get nothing for your trouble.

    Turn ($50): This is the street you absolutely must get more value from. Your goal this street is to make sure if a blank hits the river, villain will feel pot committed to calling your all-in. Also, you want to get value this street, because if villain has an overpair, TP, or a set without a diamond and a diamond hits the river, you are getting nothing more out of him. At this point, you have ~$225 behind. You want to get at least $75 into the pot this street (for a $200 total pot), so that villain will be calling no more than $150 into a $350 ($200 + $150) pot when you push the river. Because you didn't raise the flop, the best way to build the pot this round is to check-raise. His $30 bet is on the low end of the usual range, consistent with an overpair, top pair, and/or a big diamond. Again, if you raise, there is little risk you are forcing him off a weak hand; any hand that folds here would fold to a river bet. I think you should raise to $75-$80 straight, giving him good odds to call, and setting up a river push on a blank. Notice how, if you had check-raised the flop, you could have led out for $75-$80 on the turn (into a $100 pot), then pushed the river.

    River ($110): As played, this is a tough spot to get maximum value. If villain just had Kd or Jd, he's done with the hand. If he has a smaller flush, it doesn't matter what you do as the money is likely getting in the pot; he's certainly betting a flush on the river. So, your action has to be determined by deciding how much value you can get out of medium-strength hands like top pair, overpair, two pair, or a set. Two pair or a set will likely call 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot, something in the $60-$80 range. Top pair or an overpair will depend on the player, but will likely call 1/3 to 1/2 the pot, something in the $40-$60 range. Two pair or a set might or might not bet the river (I think a set of Qs is very likely to bet, QT possibly bets), so you have some check-raise value against those hands. But, the bet sizing to this point does not suggest he is that strong, as he was not aggressively protecting a big hand against an obvious draw. All told, I think it is more likely he has top pair or an overpair, so I would bet out around $50. Once again, notice how a raise on the flop or turn would let you make a bigger value bet on the river.

    Bottom line, when you flop a big hand, you need to look to get maximum value from that hand. There is rarely any reason to slowplay the nuts, unless you have a board crushing hand (like quads, top boat, or top trips). Unless you know a player is uber-aggressive and will fire every street, you are almost always better off betting/raising for value than slowplaying on early streets.

  6. With $110 in the pot and you check-calling all the way, it's hard to say what to do without you telling us what the turn and river were.

    If the Q104 flop rivered say a 9 or 8 then any decent bet would look like a straight, anything else I would have put you on 2 pair. No way the flush can be picked up on from your play.

    He PF raised to 10, flop bet 15, then turn bet 30. If you were to bet $40 into him, I think it might freeze him into just calling, even if he had KK or AA.

    I would think in this river situation your max value may come from making a weak $50 bet. It would look like a stopper bet, and if you are lucky he will reraise.

    Chancing a check, he might check back, and even if he did bet $50 there's a good chance he would fold a min-raise to $100, and highly likcely he'd fold a raise to $150.

    I think there's a good chance he would raise your river bet as he fired out all along. People who just sat down usually play tight early. I put him on KK. If you are even luckier he has QQ and would re-raise you all in.

    How did it turn out?

  7. @bigchip

    Um, you are sadly misinformed if you think you are eligible for the bad beat jackpot in this case.

    If someone has JdKd and the 9d rivers, he gets a SF, you have just a busted Ace high flush. That's not a BBJ had.

    Or if it comes runners Jd, Kd and you have Ad and he has 9d, even though you both have a SF, again it's not a bad beat as you both have to use both of your cards.

  8. To everyone who pointed out it is not a Bad Beat, you are all right! I realized that Monday morning as I was telling the story to a friend; thought "You know, I wouldn't have gotten anyting but another bad beat story." So yes, I realize it now, but at the time I was just dumb. C'mon, we've all been there...

    Anyway, the result was I checked the river, he bet $50 bucks, I reraised him all in and he called. So it worked perfectly, but it was the only move that I really second guessed. I liked my check call flop and turn, making it look like I had the dry Ace or some type of draw that didn't get there.

    My thought process was if HE missed, HE has to try to buy it. If he has top two or a set, he's going to bet and call the reiase. By betting I may miss the bet if he checks behind, but thought a bet on the river may look exactly like what I had, the nuts the whole time.

    Thanks to all for your thoughts, and I think taking a flop with A8 suited for a 10 dollar raise isn't terrible; The action had one other caller before me, the raiser, and one guy to my left, who folded. Is three way to the flop with A8 suited with $33 in the pot bad?

  9. @bigchip

    Short answer: Yes, it is bad. Calling raises with weak Aces is one of the most common leaks in NLHE.

    Longer answer: It is critical to not be results oriented when analyzing a hand or your play. In this particular hand, your call worked out and you won a big pot. But what players tend to forget is the 42 other times they called a raise with this type of hand and missed and folded on the flop. More importantly, all those times an A hits and you end of calling off $100 in bets only to lose to AK or AQ. Or when you get stacked when the flop comes A-T-8 and you lose to AT or TT. Over time, this is a -EV hand to be calling raises with.

    I will often limp with it and see a cheap flop if I can, but you must proceed with caution.

    Of course, these things are all position/game/player dependent, but in general I will fold AJ or lower to a raise.

  10. when I'm first to act on the river I have learned not to check in low limit, too often they will check also and I lose max value. Your check raise worked perfect but I've lost money on the times I tried to check raise and they checked behind me, a half pot bet may be the best long term play.