@philman

Mr. Burton, it sounds like you are asserting that the PokerPro shuffle is not actually random. Is that correct?

If so, do you have any substantial evidence for this claim? For example, did you actually count how many single-suited flops occured (and out of how many hands) over your 8 hours? Or do you think that your general, casual, non-quantitative impression of too many or too few of some certain type of hand over something like 400 hands (roughly 8 hours' worth) is a sufficient basis for drawing the conclusion that the shuffle is non-random?

One thing to consider is the "PERCEPTION" of rigging, which is much more common with this type of machine versus a human dealer with an autoshuffler.

Though I believe that the machines have proper random number generators, I happened to notice that throughout the night I saw quads 3 times, and two royal flushes.

Also, I was involved in one hand where one player flopped botton set, one twop two pair, and the other two on flush draws. The flush came through on the turn, and the river boated the top two and the underboat.

Of course, these types of things happen with a human dealer as well, but the perception of rigging is much harder to overcome on these types of machines versus a person.

Anybody that supports this might as well stick to online. Imagine the WSOP using this stuff. I'm all for technology, but enough already. This could ruin the game. I'll stick to "traditional" live poker thank you very much.

@barts2770

I'll see you at the table.... the real table. I'm with ya. It may not ruin the game, but it certainly could take away a lot of out live poker options at the lower levels. I guess Luxor will convert next. I'm interested to see if this is popular enough to make it up to TI or even MGM, that would be something. Surely not.

What games do you play on these machines? Do the players vote or is it just preset?

They would start tables from a list just like other poker rooms. When I was there they had 2/4 limit and 1/2 nl. As I left they were starting a 4/8 limit. The freeroll tournament was going on too.

Can the tables play non hold em game? Can they play stud games? Mixed games? HORSE? Or just hold em?

At the moment, they are programmed for HE and LHE as well as PLO and Stud High. Programming exists for Razz, Stud 8 and Omaha 8 (and PLO8) but Excal does not have those games programmed. I am not aware of the games can do a rotation game. I am aware that they do not have an existing program, at this time, for any draw or multi flop games.

Is it odd to anyone else on this sight that these type of posts keep showing up recently. I noticed that a lot of the people who are supporting the automated machines have very few posts. Could it be that we have some cowards who shill for pokerteck getting on the sight to pump up their piece of garbage.

@philman

Anybody ever remember Philman discussing anything else?

SPP

This guys a sham...and a douche.

@vegasdealer78

Me or him?

OP - Doesn't any hint that the RNG is not actually random kind of ruin any appeal for you? I'm sure these things have to get licensed and the RNG checked & validated in exactly the same way as the online ones. But as LVM says, it's perception which will count and affect the popularity.

Why don't they standardize an RNG, get some boffins to make it, and require everyone to use the same online, pokertek, wherever?

I don't want these, I think its a terrible shame cos I've found the Excalibur to be a fun and relaxed place to play compared to a lot of intimidating places. The dealer is a big part of that. As a live newb I was a lot happier there than trying to sit down with the overly serious types at V/Caesar's etc.

I have no doubt in my mind that Nevada Gaming would not allow the use of these machines if they did not meet Gaming's criteria for a Random Number Generator. That doesn't mean they are random, as I don't believe that random actually exists, but I feel pretty confidant that they are unpredictable by players, and they are not designed to put out cards that create action. (I do not have the same confidence in the unregulated world of online gambling).

However as i have stated before I have no confidence that dealerless games can maintain the integrity of the game from the standpoint of prohibiting collusion and violation of one player to hand rule a swell as other offenses.

Absolutely - and what about speech play? Do verbal declarations stand and how would that get enforced without a dealer to monitor?

I agree and in any case, I suspect that the PokerTek 'shuffle' is at least as 'random' as the auto-shuffler's 'random' shuffle.

These tables are NOT an different type of live poker but rather a shared 'internet' poker experience.

This is not 'live' poker and,as such, the rules regarding collusion, verbal declarations etc. do not, strictly apply although I would be interested to see the Excalibur's rules and those of the NGC to see what they say.

On this I will disagree. The deckmates currently in poker tables have no means of recognizing cards and as such there is no chance for these machines to sort cards into a particular order unless the machine knew what order the "unshuffled" deck was in to begn. The newer machines in the pits have recognition systems but these are not yet on the poker tables.

I'm going to disagree with you here. I expect that these rules do apply, the problem is that there is no one to police them. If a player calls over a floor person for these issues I expect the floor will warn the table not to "insert violation here" however many of these violations will go unmentioned without a dealer at the table, and a floor can't really know what happened when there is a dispute.

I'm from sweden and I'm just about to make my 1st trip to Vegas.
I avg 1k hands a day online~. Why would I travel half around the globe to play online "live"?
Lower rake?
No tipping dealers?
More hands/hour?

I want to play "real" poker with real cards and chips. I just learned some fancy chip tricks and now I cant do that? cmon....No way I will support this electronic table-trend even to try it out.

Luckily the vast majority will avoid these tables and eventually they will prob die out.

ultimately the customers will decide. Surely the companies that want this to succeed will have their shills post on boards such as these. But as the player from Sweden says, he prefers 'live' poker, as well will most other customers.

Boycott this abomination. Save our games, save our dealers. This shall not stand!

@HonestBen

Oh this and many many other rules will be "tested" if we include the Exfunroom on a future adventure.

But until that time kids here are some fun things that you can try out at the fake poker room:

1. Speak a different language.
2. Tell someone "If you bet, I will raise."
3. Say I'm "all-in" out of turn.
4. Tell them what you folded.
5. Declare to the table what is needed to complete a hand. "If you have the 10 you have the straight"
6. Declair its a chopped pot with a straight on board.
7. Point out physical imperfections of other players. "Hey your head is shaped like a block." (That one makes me cry.) Important safety tip make sure that the person you insult didn't just win his Ultimate Fighting Match.
8. Have a friend try to see what the other player has.
9. Impress all the other players with your extensive knowledge and use of four letter words.
10. Say "He doesn't have it, you should call!"

Above all, have fun.

In case this post gets me in trouble, this is not Perry.

Sincerely,

OD, or Clem, or Yappy, or LBM, or AlaskaGal (see its not me, Perry)

I played in the room tonight, I have a review posted in the rooms forum. I did cross off a couple items on your list SPperry, uhhh I mean Clem.... My favorite of which was to verbally declare all types of $hit, I routinely would tell people I was going to go all in and fold. Verbally is obviously not binding, and I find this to be very liberating LOL. I hate being constrained by possibly saying the wrong thing.

@SouthPointPerry

I was thinking the exact same thing.

I might check these out tonight.

Are you allowed to smoke at the table?

No. Excal is still a non smoking room.

I believe those who support Poker Tek machines are shills. I played them one time for 10 minutes--and quit. They are NO SUBSTITUTE for a live b/m poker table. They are a joke.

Give me a dealer and I'm happy to toke for the service. Live games forever.

As far as rigging, I don't think there is any chance in hell that the machines are anything other than "random" (I put random in quotes because a computer can never generate a truly random number). First of the machines never would have gotten past the gaming commission. Second, if they somehow did get past gaming and it later came out that they had them programmed for more action or what not, PokerTek would probably be booted out of every casino that they were in because players would refuse to play on them. It's much like online poker where a huge % of players claim it is rigged and that you see more quads, straight flushes, boat over boat situations etc, but the truth is the online sites (and PokerTek) have everything to lose and nothing to gain other than an inconsequential and barely measurable increase in rake and everything to lose.

That being said, I think another reason these tables will fail is because of the perception among people that the cards are not truly random. I can see lots of situations where if a guy loses all his chips to a bad beat he's not going to come back because he feels like the table fuc-ked him over and it was rigged whereas if it happens on a real table the player is going to be pissed but he's not going to stop playing.

Now, despite my strong belief that everything is random on these tables, still find it bizarre that LVM witnessed 3 quads and TWO ROYAL FLUSHES while he played. Wow!

@SouthPointPerry

Anybody ever remember Philman discussing anything else?

SPP[/quote]

I was thinking the say thing when I was reading that post. 0 posts before that one and its written like someone who is trying to promote the things. Almost like its their job. All of the points that are made are probably printed in a brochure for the things.

I only give credence to those a posting history here.

@psand

On this I will disagree. The deckmates currently in poker tables have no means of recognizing cards and as such there is no chance for these machines to sort cards into a particular order unless the machine knew what order the "unshuffled" deck was in to begn. The newer machines in the pits have recognition systems but these are not yet on the poker tables.[/quote]

I agree, my point was to try to allay the suspicions regarding hand rigging. However, those who truly believe that the tables are rigged to promote action will never be disuaded.

You kind of edited me there but I really can't see how the standard 'live' rules under discussion can be enforced in the absence of a dealer/table monitor. If a player balks after making an 'all-in' declaration, without chips on the table to be collected all a player would have to do is fold and then log out.

I can't see a floor running after a player, dragging him back to the table, re-running the hand (which these tables can do) and making the player fork over his card to pay out.

I had the same feeling about this post as some others - something here doesn't smell right (like when someone check calls until the river then makes a large bet on the river). Why did this Bill Burton character establish an account with AVP one day after the Pokertek tables debuted at the Excalibur? Now, let me be the first to say that I would welcome the folks from Pokertek (or any other poker-related company) posting on this site and offering us their information and perspective. However, I would also appreciate them clearly identifying themselves and who they represent. I can't figure out exactly who Bill Burton is, but I did a google search and found an pro-Pokertek article written by a Bill Burton on a website called "About.com". It also appears he writes for something called the Casino Gambling Guide and, in fact, has his own forum.

Here's the link to the article:

http://casinogambling.about.com/od/poker/a/pokerpro.htm

P.S. Bill Burton's pro-Pokertek article also appear on other websites. Again, I like that someone with knowledge about the tables would post here, but would encourage Mr. Burton to be more forthcoming about his background in this regard.

@SouthPointPerry

Me or him?[/quote]

him of course....i love you Perry!

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first post...

One thing that I am curious about is what happens to the hand histories from these tables. Are they purged periodically or is there going to be a database somewhere containing every players hand histories and tendancies?

I doubt that this is a big worry for anyone as it probably wouldn't be very useful information. Unless they can cross reference your play with your drink orders (I play much differently BJ (before Jagermeister) than AJ).

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to know if they plan to retain this info and how it would be used.

@jmmcandles

Good question; Mr. Burton could you ask around the office and let us know?

Mark

@vegasdealer78

Me or him?[/quote]

him of course....i love you Perry![/quote]

Your not one of those psycho Excellant Adventure Fans trying to cut off a lock of my or Michael's hair are you? Just in case you are: I LOVE YOU TOO & LVM HAS THE BETTER HAIR.

Very Happy the MonteCarlo fully recovered. Sorry we missed you on the EA.

Perry

@DayTripping

I believe he was saying that this occurred at a live table. In all the thousands of hands I've played live, I've seen 3 flopped straight flushes (that were shown down anyway), and two of them were in the same orbit. Within the same half hour I had a royal myself, albeit playing just one hole card.

When bluffing is removed from the game, ALL action is created by two unlikely events happening at once.

On the topic of the autotables, I haven't seen yet what rake Excal is taking on them. Unless it's reduced fairly dramatically, I see them failing unless they're used strictly for donkaments and microstakes cash.

10% Rake $3 max taken in Quarter Increments if I'm not mistaken

I know a philman from another forum. If it is the same guy, you'll find that he is not a shill, just a guy firm in his opinions. Not sure if this is the same guy, though.

I also don't think philman is Bill Burton, I think he is quoting Bill Burton

I agree as far as verbal declarations. But I think its obvious that verbal declarations aren't action in a computer game.

My point in regards to "collusive speecH" and other prohibited speech, is that difficulty in enforcement does not mean that the speech is acceptable. The fact that there is no dealer to tell a player not to announce that he folded the card that would make a straight flush while the other players are still playing the hand does not mean that it is not against the rules for the player to make that announcement, just as the fact that there isn't a cop around doesn't make it legal to run a red light.

@jmmcandles

They certainly are retained and can be re-run (I've seen it done in the UK)..but these are more for the settling of disputes, checking of cheating and refunds after computer glitches.

Retention of individual user data would be pointless from a gaming standpoint as the machines don't (I sincerely believe) affect the distribution off hands.

It's kind of like asking how long do they keep the video recordings of the 'eye in the sky'...same princiiple

South Point Perry you made A very strong point!I'm new here so I dont know anybody but all the players I talk to here in Vegas don't want any thing to do with them! And I have been talking to alot of players at least 5or6 days A week!And yes I guess I spend to much time in poker rooms!

I read some other people posting reviews of the machines in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=5243

I am a couple days late reding this thread, however I wanted to voice my support for "Q" and all the other displaced Dealers. Mr Philman, I personally enjoy the interaction of a real live Dealer and the service they provide. If a lousy dollar out of a pot ruins your whole poker experience, I suggest you stick to Full Tilt or Poker stars you cheap bastard!!!!